Yes, we should know our enemy, Israel deals with constant attacks from Muslims over land, religion, and they didn't ask for that. How many times did the twin towards get attack by terrorist (and they were muslims) before they finally accomplish what they set out to do? I know that there are peaceful and law abiding muslims, but they are taught by the Koren. You need to look up the Koran Bible on the Internet and read it. It is very short but to the point that who does not believe as they do should die! And there is a whole lot of extremist that are already practicing this. That why we are having so many terrorist acts all over the world. And they believe in ultimate power and will not stop at anything to get it. We want to be a compassionate nation and because of that we have opened our doors to anyone that wants to hurt us. Where do you draw the line. I really don't think its by going and apologizing for what we do that is right. Saul was told by God to kill everyone in a nation they went to war with or they would raise up against him. Saul disobeyed God and lost many people and land was almost wiped out. This nation has been disobedient in many things.
We need to pray as a nation for forgiveness, and pray the wrath of God pass over us.
I am a person that will tell you the truth. If you are disobedient to the word of God, you open the doors of hell upon yourself. We need the word so we are wise in the ways of the Lord. God is a compassionate God, but he also has law that we must live by. Why are we such a big target, because of the filth that comes from our nation. And we are not the only ones. We will all answer to God one day, but the Koran will make you answer to it now.
Thanks for this pole. The truth needs to be told.
This just floored me!! Conspiracy theories are one thing, but the thing I had just read was a misinformed, lie-filled, pile of drivel ... being sold as "truth". This woman was telling blatant and obvious lies about something that she apparently knew nothing about. She was using those lies to build a case for GENOCIDE ... and she wasn't stopping - the attacks kept on coming. I think the last sentence about the "truth needs to be told" is a large part of what spurred me to action. Here was my reply:
BJ Shaffer:
Yeah, the truth does need to be told. I doubt (name withheld)'s ever seen a Quran, or spent one iota of time looking into it. Everything you've said about that text, (name withheld), or the relevant religion is categorically *wrong*.
The Quran is not short. It's about as long as the New Testament of the Bible.
The Quran is not full of "to the point" horrible, evil, genocidal commandments. It is written in poetic metre, full of allegory and is generally compassionate in nature.
Sure, there are calls for violence - primarily to those who would harm the Believer. Extremists tend to quote these passages (out of context) as justification for their own evil. However, there are also many calls for compassion and understanding - specifically towards Christians and Jews:
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62).
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82)
Just as there are many calls for compassion and understanding in the Holy Bible ... as well as calls for violence. The Bible ain't all bubble gum and teddy bears, sweetheart. (name withheld) - you yourself just related the story where God ordered Saul to commit Genocide!! The wiping out of an entire race of people!! What can be more horrible than that?!? If you're pro-genocide ... hey, more power to you. It worked for Hitler.
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2
"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16
You speak of the attacks on Israel by the Palestinian Muslims - without mentioning that one of the world's worst humanitarian crises was committed on the Palestinians by the Israeli Jews. When Israel declared itself a country in 1948, over 700,000 Palestinians were slaughtered, evicted or fled the territory that Israel claimed. This is historical FACT. You can't talk your way out of it any more than you can talk your way out of the Holocaust. So yes, the grievance of the Palestinians *is* a very real one. Yes, this was a grievance cited by the group behind 9/11. Does it justify what was done on 9/11? Hell no!
But does it mean that devout Muslims who fastidiously study the Quran are an evil organization hell-bent on destruction, usurping authority and taking over the world? If you believe that, you're F-ing crazy. And yes, I realize that I've just wasted about 20 minutes of my life typing all of this out ... nothing can change the mind of the small-minded, and this is only working to raise my blood pressure. So I'm done. You're blocked.
And I did block her. I was so angry by the end of my own posting that I wanted nothing to do with her afterwards. I understand completely that the most sound logic in the world can't touch the mind of one who blindly believes. I was done. I said my piece and was ready to move on. But the next day, messages started coming in. More than one person from my brother's friends list whom I have never met were sending me personal messages saying "Thank you for taking that woman to task".
I knew that I was being a dick when I posted my response. I wanted to go back and re-read my post to see if it was more sensible than I'd originally thought - I mean, hey - I was gaining fans from it. So I unblocked the friend-of-a-friend so that I could go back and read all of the context and following replies ... and lo-and-behold ... she had been back to the conversation with *another* jewel of a message:
I did not understand what an infidel was, thought it was someone who cheated on their spouse. But (relative's name withheld) corrected me and says in the Muslim meaning it is a christian. So if they believe their bible like we believe ours.
We had a Russian Evangelist at our church years ago and he came with stories of when he worked in a Muslim Nation. I think it was that he had witnessed to a muslim and he had converted to christianity. The young man went home to tell his mother and she was so grieved but knew what the muslim bible had taught. She tried to poison her son for a whole week. But because he was now under God protection, she didn't seceded. She went to her sons work place to tell this Evangelist what she was trying to do and she also gave her life to God.
It is a real thing as to what the Muslims believe. That a mother would kill her own son. I know we don't mean that much to them.
They are very busy putting everything in place to do what they came to do, America needs to wise up. President Bush knew, he did his homework. That is why we are at war. And we need to step it up if we want to put this to rest, or it will come back on us, with a vengeance.
Seriously ... WTF?!? How much Bullshit can one person drum up?!? Again, the last sentence is what irked me the most ... that ex-President Bush knew that Islam was Evil, and that is why we are at war?!? No, wait ... I clearly remember the days after 9/11 when Bush was at the highest popularity of his presidency. I knew that he clearly said the war on Terror was NOT a war on Islam. Here were my replies:
BJ Shaffer:
I know I said I was going to block her, but I just HAD to go back and look at the crazy stuff being said. I know, I know ... glutton for punishment is me.
Ms. (name withheld) *REALLY* needs to check her sources:
Infidel: "In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize the one God (Allah) - atheists and polytheists - and not to religions such as Christianity, Judaism - who are seen as "People of the Book (Ahl-e-kitab)"
-- An Introductory Dictionary of Theology and Religious Studies, p. 630 (a slightly more reputed source on Theology than "(relative's name withheld)")
I may slam George W. Bush a lot - but the *one* thing he did do right was make it crystal clear that the war on Terror was absolutely *NOT* a war against Islam:
"The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."
--Remarks by the President at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. September 17, 2001
"I've made it clear, Madam President, that the war against terrorism is not a war against Muslims, nor is it a war against Arabs. It's a war against evil people who conduct crimes against innocent people."
--Remarks by President George W. Bush and President Megawati of Indonesia The Oval Office, Washington, D.C. September 19, 2001
"All Americans must recognize that the face of terror is not the true faith -- face of Islam. Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It's a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It's a faith based upon love, not hate."
-- President George W. Bush Holds Roundtable with Arab and Muslim-American Leaders Afghanistan Embassy, Washington, D.C. September 10, 2002
"Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn't follow the great traditions of Islam. They've hijacked a great religion."
-- Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C. October 11, 2002
"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America."
-- Remarks by President George W. Bush in a statement to reporters during a meeting with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan The Oval Office, Washington, DC November 13, 2002
"Wouldn't it be nice if we all did our homework and expressed a little religious tolerance from time to time?"
-- BJ Shaffer August 19, 2010
BJ Shaffer: ... and one last word. Yes, Islam IS harsh on people who leave the faith. The third-person anecdote about the boy who converts to Christianity being poisoned by his mother may or may not have actually happened. Either way is plausible. But don't think for a second that as Christians you are immune to the same level of wrath prescribed by a strict interpretation of The Holy Bible:
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." --Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (New International Version)
You just can't argue with facts. What?!? George W Bush knew what was going on with the secret underground Muslim plot for world domination, and that's why we are at war with Islam? Here's a quote ... NO ... here's FIVE quotes, from the man himself, stating that you are full of shit. Islam is evil because of a 3rd-party anecdote about a mother poisoning her son for converting to Christianity?!? Take a hard look at your own Good Book - and tell me that Christianity has a better prescription for leaving the faith.
In the end, my brother deleted the whole thing - he had his little bro going fisticuffs with a member of his congregation, and he didn't want to deal with it. That's fine. I'd never ask him to take sides between his family and his faith (especially considering how fucked up our family is). Not to mention that I was being an egotistical prick. I did however, make a suggestion for him to ask his pastor for a sermon on religious tolerance because this woman is apparently terrified of a particular religion for all the wrong reasons.
But today I ask myself after it is all said and done, wiped from the existence of Facebook ... why did I even bother responding to her inane words? Why did her anti-Muslim propaganda affect me so strongly? She wasn't trashing my own religion - I'm no Muslim. Hell, I don't even consider myself a Christian. I'm not sure what I am ... I probably best describe myself as Agnostic. Which is just a fancy word for "I don't know"; none of the answers people have tried to sell me seem right ... so I'm still looking. I'm not angry or resentful towards Christians in general. I don't like a lot of the things that the extreme fundamentalist wing of Christianity does ... but no worse than i dislike the extreme fundamentalist wing of Islam. Why does the Islamophobia that's running so rampant, especially among the Religious Right, bother me so much?
I think the answer to that question is best answered by Martin Niemoller, the old and long-dead Protestant Priest who was incarcerated by the Nazis so many years before I was born:
First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and by that time nobody was left to speak up.
I think that if we see a group of people being wrongly attacked, we really need to stand up for something higher than ourselves and defend them. When we see lies and pernicious propaganda being spread for no greater cause than to demonize and sow fear - we need to do what we can to cut through that propaganda and expose what lies beneath. In the end, it's in our own best interest to stand up for those who are being wrongly persecuted. If I don't, who is going to help me when it's my turn under the sword?
The best tools to use in such a situation are simple: education, facts and truth. Ego and cockiness are best left at the door ... but it's just so damn hard to not bring them along.
